Government comparisons from our members

[ambarnes]

In a context similar to that of another topic, I was comparing our federal taxation system to that of other countries. For single individuals, it goes something like this:

Not over $6,000
10% of the taxable income

Over $6,000 but not over $27,950
$600 plus 15% of the excess over $6,000

Over $27,950 but not over $67,700
$3,892.50 plus 27% of the excess over $27,950

Over $67,700 but not over $141,250
$14,625 plus 30% of the excess over $67,700

Over $141,250 but not over $307,050
$36,690 plus 35% of the excess over $141,250

Over $307,050
$94,720 plus 38.6% of the excess over $307,050


I was interested to hear from Paul his viewpoints on Canada's national healthcare system. Does it actually "work" ok for you, in terms of getting the care you need? Is the cost outrageously high or reasonable? Pros and cons I'm interested in hearing.

That particular idea has been floated around the U.S. for a number of years now, but many feel it was been a big disadvantage in having one. I would think that if there were a national system, it would result in a large loss of jobs in moving from our private-based system now.

[ambarnes]

Tommy said (in a previous post):
And theres a 25% "sales-tax" on almost all goods.

Wow!! That is outrageous...in the U.S., there is no federal sales tax of any kind, it is set at the state level. For example, where I live our state has a 6.25% rate, then local cities can add on to that if they want. Where I am, ours is 8.25%, and that is considered one of the highest in our country. After seeing 25% in Denmark, I don't feel so bad now. Of course, there are some states that do not have any sales tax.

Both sales tax and state income tax are set at the state level. Alaska, for example, has no sales tax or income tax. In fact, the State of Alaska pays each person who permanently resides there around $2000/year.

[tommy]

One of the reasons why we in Denmark pay so much in tax is that we have free healthcare. But it is not good enough because of waiting lists. Some operations have waiting lists of 3 to 12 months some even more.

[tommy]

The danish tax system is like this:

Everybody pay a 8% "arbejdsmarkedsbidrag" (Don't know the proper word for this)

Everybody pay 1% special penstion tax

Thats before any deductables (not sure on this word ?)

On the rest we can deduct certain things like union membership costs etc of the rest we pay:

5,5%
+ 6% of income over 198.000 DKK
+ 15% of income over 295.300 DKK
+ 32,20% of income - deductables
+ 0,78% for danish church

This is simplified a lot because it requires thousands of pages to describe all the rules :evil:

[ambarnes]

Wow 3-12 months?! Could you imagine needing a liver transplant or something? A person could die waiting for a needed operation.

In our private-based system here, a vast majority of our population obtains insurance from their employer. The employer solicits quotes from various insurance companies based on total number of employees, type of business the company does, etc. So what does that mean if you aren't currently working? Well you can obtain a limited individual policy directly from the insurance company, however they have the right limit what they will pay for your healthcare, and it can be expensive. Usually employers pay a majority of the cost for their employees health insurance coverage. When you have no employer, you pay the full amount. Thus, there are millions of people in our nation who have no coverage at all.

Of course if you want to get fancy, a person can conceivably start up their own small business and so long as you show you have 2 employees (ie: husband and wife, yourself and friend, etc.), then the insurance companies must provide you with a policy if you ask for it and can pay the premiums.

Sometimes the type of care we can get is good, other times it sucks. There are different types of health care a person can get, but they usually fall into 2 types of plans:

HMO - A person selects a primary doctor and must coordinate all health care through that one doctor. If you don't, you get no coverage.

PPO - you can see any doctor you want, including specialists. If you see those who are "in the network", the insurance company pays the highest level of benefits, but if you go "out of the network", they will still pay something.

The HMO-type plan is the one that has caused a lot of people grief over denying care for some emergency procedures...they are starting to switch over to the PPO type plans.

[ambarnes]

Tommy,

aside from the health care issue, would you say for the high amount of taxes you pay that your government does a decent job with the money they take in? In other words, is there a low crime rate, public services are good, etc.?

[tommy]

Well the national debt is decreasing, the unemployment has been decreasing for some years now. We have a plus on the national balance, that is we import less than we export. The inflation is low, the interest is low.

But the majority of the danish population think that we pay to much in tax. Our current government has promised to lower taxes but not until the money for it is present. They don't want to lower the tax and just increase national debt instead and that makes good sense.

As for healtcare, actually many heart patients risk waiting months and some have died waiting. Ofcourse we do have private hospitals but the state generally does not pay for a patient to be treated on a private hospital although they are starting to do this very slowly now.

Generally public services is ok.

[PaulG]

For 2001, In Canada, Federal tax rates are:
$0 - $30,754 16% (there's an 8000$ exemption at the base though)

$30,755 - $61,509 22%

$61,510 - $100,000 26%

$100,000 and over 29%


The US spends way, way more on healthcare than anyone anywhere else in the world, BTW, I don't have the numbers handy, but every few years we re-hash everything up here, it's hard not to compare ourselves to the US, so we have a pretty good idea of your whole system, or at least the general trends.

Overall, we spend less because everything is regulated, but it also means that we don't have as much access to, well, rich people's money, so overall top-level services are lessened, but everyone, whetehr a janitor or a CEO, has decent service. You can still buy extras - like single occupancy in a hospital, government insurance only pays for double occupancy, etc.( Having a job makes a major difference in what you can get for school, health care, etc, but a normal, hard-working person can lead a perfectly OK life with a normal job, with healthcare and sending kids to College and all. As in any system where the State helps out though, you do have some leeches though.)

It also means we don't have expensive private clinics with expensive equipment not being used - our doctors are always arguing about how to get more access to sophisticated equiment, but it also means we spend far less than you Yanks do on getting that equipment in the first place.

Overall people up here aren't really annoyed at the health care system, though there is always discontent about it in the media. But most people I know who have actually needed care haven't complained much about the actual service.
It's true that sometimes there are waiting lists - but overall I'd rather see waiting lists of 1 month for everyone than have some people go right away, and have others never have a chance.

"The overall tax burden for families in 2000 has risen to 47.5% of income -- up from 33.5% in 1961.

This is worth repeating. On average, almost 50 cents of every dollar you earn goes to some level of government. "

I'm ashamed to say this, but I can't find my provincial tax brackets.... which is embarassing given I work in the Revenue Ministry. But hey, I'm just an IT guy :-/

As to other public services, you can always complain, but overall life is good, crime is low, I can walk just about any neighborhood any time of day or night and feel safe... the only time I've heard a gunshot in my entire life is when close to a hunting area at my parents cottage....

I think everywhere you go you'll have problems, but right now life is good here in Canada, IMO. I've considered moving to the US sometimes, since salaries and career options are better, but I'd need a serious raise to do so, simply feeling safe and comfortable and knowing you're in a relatively fair society is worth quite a lot, IMO. IE, I'm making a normal middle-class salary, I'd need to make a 20-30% raise to want to move to the US.

Many of my American or even European friends have considered moving here, which makes me thing I'm in a pretty good spot. But like everyone else, we can still whine !! :-)

[PaulG]

Tommy said (in a previous post):
And theres a 25% "sales-tax" on almost all goods.

Wow!! That is outrageous...in the U.S., there is no federal sales tax of any kind, it is set at the state level. For example, where I live our state has a 6.25% rate, then local cities can add on to that if they want. Where I am, ours is 8.25%, and that is considered one of the highest in our country. After seeing 25% in Denmark, I don't feel so bad now. Of course, there are some states that do not have any sales tax.

Both sales tax and state income tax are set at the state level. Alaska, for example, has no sales tax or income tax. In fact, the State of Alaska pays each person who permanently resides there around $2000/year.

In my province in Canada it's 15% sales tax overall..... which always seems way too high, but when you see 25%...... but it all depends on other taxes too, so we shouldn't just compare 1 to 1 numbers like that. With free healthcare and I assume cheap education, raising a family and growing old in Denmark might be a lot less worrisome than it would be even in Canada.

As to Alaska - I think their problem is not having enough people to exploit the vast natural ressources there, so it's worthwhile for the government to subsidize people to move there.

[jeppegotha]

Tommy,

aside from the health care issue, would you say for the high amount of taxes you pay that your government does a decent job with the money they take in? In other words, is there a low crime rate, public services are good, etc.?

Hi,
I live in Denmark too...
I think it is ok to pay the taxes we do since the money is also used

• on the people that do not have a job (they still get money from the state)
  people on pension
  people that are studying
  free roads
  you get money for driving if you live along way from work
  etc.

Ofcause all the services could be better BUT if the alternative is that you have to pay for everything yourself it would mean that it is only the people that can work and have money that get help. But what about all the people that can't get a job or can't work ????
I preferre the danish system - even if it means more taxes.